Building a people-centric leadership style: A conversation with Charlie Green, CEO of Workspace Group PLC

Welcome to The Heidrick & Struggles Leadership Podcast. Heidrick is the premier global provider of senior-level executive search and leadership consulting services. Diversity and inclusion, leading through tumultuous times, and building thriving teams and organizations are among the core issues we talk with leaders about every day, including in our podcasts. Thank you for joining the conversation.

Chantal Clavier: Hello, I'm Chantal Clavier, a partner in Heidrick and Struggles’ London office and leader of the Real Estate Practice. In today's podcast, I'm absolutely delighted to be speaking with Charlie Green, CEO of Workspace PLC, FTSE 250, and one of London's leading providers of flexible office space for small- and medium-sized creative businesses.

Charlie is particularly well-known in London for having co-created The Office Group—TOG, as some of us fondly know it—famous for design-led, hospitality-rich products, and a real first mover in introducing offices with shorter lease commitments. It's a tough time for many listed entities in today's real estate world. You know, gosh, name it: share prices are down, occupancy levels in offices are falling, and the list sort of goes on. I don't really want to get into that. 

Instead, I actually wanted to salute you for jumping into it in this hard market. It's a tough role you've got at Workspace and, actually, I wonder what sort of person even does that, right? And I am intrigued, and I think that's why I want to have this sit-down with you. I want to know more about the person Charlie Green, and I suppose less about the market, Charlie, less about what you're seeing as you think about competitors, et cetera, and mechanics of real estate. I'm more interested in the human behind the leader, if that's all right with you?

Charlie Green: Yes, kind of. Let's see where it goes, but I'm up for it. 

Chantal Clavier: So, Mr. Charlie Green. What other titles do you have in life, Charlie? And in what order would you prioritize them? 

Charlie Green: Father, husband, friend. I mean, you know, fairly, fairly standard. There's a lot going on so you sort of—life just sort of enmeshes into one. I don't really prioritize things, but obviously, two kids, 13 and 18, so that's probably the sort of top of the list. 

I guess the point is work isn't everything, right? Life outside of work is really important to me and trying to get some balance, which isn't straightforward, but trying to get that balance. You know, I work really hard and I think about work a lot, and I think about it when I go home and I'll kind of do work when I go home. Occasionally, I'll wake up at three in the morning, and I'll be thinking about work. That's okay, that sort of comes with the territory, but trying to get that balance is very important. 

Chantal Clavier: I think that's right. I think there are a number of people in that bucket. Let's just focus on the work for a second, and then we'll spin out of that afterwards because, you know, the meat of the conversation is really about the human behind the leader. But if we just hinge on one of the titles you have which actually, really interestingly, you didn't mention, which is CEO. 

Charlie Green: Oh, yes. 

Chantal Clavier: So, yes, that is interesting. How long have you been leading businesses for? 

Charlie Green: Well, I started my career as a charter surveyor. I worked for a company, [where] I was sort of right hand to the CEO for quite a small sort of PLC public company for four years or so. And then, at the age of 29, had heart surgery. So, I had this sort of life-changing incident [where] I took four months out of work, then I went back and I realized that I had this big shift, which wasn't a conscious thing, and I felt that I wanted to do something that was more for me and less about other people and pleasing other people and, actually, what could I do that was putting myself as a priority. 

And so, I really sort of explored what the opportunities were, what I wanted, and I saw there was an opportunity to create something that wasn't in the market at the time, that was quite different to what was being provided. And that was, at that property company I'd worked at, they had a serviced office subsidiary which I was very heavily involved with and leading part of, and I just felt that actually there was an opportunity to do something that was quite different and to challenge the market, to challenge the serviced office market, but ultimately to challenge the office market. 

I met my co-founder, Olly (Olsen). We had actually worked before we'd got to know one another, and then we formed this bond over sort of the vision of what we believed would be successful and what people wanted. So, our core driver was, what do we think people want from space and how do we articulate that, execute on that, deliver that in terms of environments and spaces where people work? So, we started a business. 

But I kind of wasn't leading a business, it was just me and Olly, and we were—it was a very raw sort of partnership. And then we had our first employee, Karina, and then we had our second employee, Claire. And then you start to realize that people are looking to you for some kind of direction, for guidance, for support. And we built the business, ultimately, over a 20-year period. So, The Office Group now, everyone called it TOG, and then it rebranded as Fora after we did a merger with Fora. 

So, the leadership thing, I think, was a very organic, natural iteration of my career. It's not something I particularly thought about or sought, it just sort of came to be. But it was an area of the business which I enjoyed enormously, the culture piece and how you bring people on a journey and take people towards something. And something that creates an impact, something that does good, it's something that makes a difference, and something that is different, something that stands out was really important. 

I think if, you know, that passion that Olly and I had, that was a very genuine level of commitment and care, I think that really people feed off that. There's a sort of this, there's almost an osmotic effect that happens where people can actually feed off that and thrive themselves. So, I've been thinking about it lately and I've sort of described it lately as the greatest adventure of my life, right. This 20-year journey building this business, it was wonderful, it was challenging, it was, you know, we traded through the GFC, we traded through Covid, and in between we had all the challenges that you have running a business, which was significant, but we had a lot of fun. 

Chantal Clavier: There's so much in what you've said that I could dig in to probably as a podcast on its own, actually. But as you were speaking, I was thinking nature versus nurture. You said you were 29 when you had your accident. How old were you when you sort of connected with Olly and the two of you began to create a platform?

Charlie Green: Well, we started TOG when I was 33. So, and I think I was, I needed it, I was looking for it. And yes, so it was a period, you know, I always thought I was a corporate guy and I really, you know, I felt I had that sort of root. And when I worked for that plc, I figured I would be, you know, I was 29, I reckoned I was sort of on the board within six or seven years. I was really committed to that career path. And then everything changed. 

Chantal Clavier: What made you so committed to that career path? Where did that even come from? 

Charlie Green: Oh gosh, I mean I couldn't tell you. I don't know. I think my father had highs and lows in business. He was in real estate, as it happens but, you know, there were good times and there were very evidently not good times. And I think that's really—if you were to really examine that, I suspect that that was incredibly unsettling as a kid. So, you know, you look for some kind of certainty then in your own path, in your own career, and I suspect that's probably a driver then for sort of that kind of ambition. 

Chantal Clavier: Obviously moving into a progressive leadership role from quite a young age—and as you have described, the business grew with your first employee to 400 or so. How do you think you show up as a leader today compared to those earlier days? What shifted? 

Charlie Green: The quality of emotional intelligence is incredibly important, I think to the business that you have and how you deliver that business, but also to how you respond to all of your touch points. And, of course, your most frequent touch point are the other people who you work with. And then there's the other stakeholders, it might be investors, it might be your customers, but I think that emotional intelligence allows you to connect with people in a certain way. And I think that, to answer the question, over the years I think that I've been aware of that and developed that, which has allowed me to see people. 

Chantal Clavier: What does that mean, Charlie? I'm going to interrupt. 

Charlie Green: I think that I have a good read of people when I meet them. I think I can see good people, I see whether they are—I don't know. You know, energetically you get a sense of people, and I think that's something both Olly and I actually had. I think we were good at reading people very quickly, which meant that we could surround ourselves with people. So, I often talk about one of our best project managers that we had at TOG in the early days was a lady called Caroline, and Caroline had come from—she played the Good Witch in Wicked in the West End, in Victoria, I think that’s where it is. but she had—she was in a relationship, she wanted a day job, she needed to move away from acting. We somehow recruited her, and it was very clear that this was someone who was incredibly bright and very organized, and we just said, “You know, we want you to manage this project of a refurbishment, of a fit-out of an office space.” And we just said, “You know, we will support you, but give it a go.” And she was outstanding. 

And I think there's something about empowerment, giving people the opportunity and letting them run with it, and there's something about recognizing that they can do that in the first place, because it's a risk, but it's about human qualities and seeing the essence of someone. 

You know, I told the story the other day that our very first client that we had, Olly called me and said, "Look, we've got our first deal, they want to take the space.” So we had a small building, it was a converted pub in Islington. This was a top floor office and I said, "Dude, this is it. This is, we're here, we've arrived. This is the proof.” 

Chantal Clavier: It’s exciting, yes. 

Charlie Green: “This is going to work.” And he said, "Yes. Except there's something about them that's not right.” I said, "It doesn't matter. We'll deal with it down the road. It's fine, just sign the deal.” Of course, we signed the deal and three months later these guys were just the most awful people. And I met with them after three months, and I said, "Look, clearly you're not happy, maybe you should think about leaving.” And we’d let the other spaces, so we were comfortable with them leaving. And they said, "Yes, we're going on Friday. We're not happy.” And I said, “Okay, fine. Look, we've got a two-month deposit, you’ve got three months left, just don't worry, but just go, we'll call it quits.” And they said, “No, give us our deposit back.” And they then threatened to follow us home at night, it was quite disconcerting. 

Chantal Clavier: A regular day as CEO. 

Charlie Green: And [it] actually all panned out fine. And it was just sort of someone who was just a bit overconfident and there was no substance behind it. But the point was that we knew they weren't right. There's something, though, about how you present yourselves and how you present your business and how you communicate with your people and your audience that actually, if you do it the right way, you attract people, they’ll meet you there. These were not that, I guess, is the point of that story. Thereafter, somehow I think we just, we managed to attract really wonderful people, really talented and skilled, and some really wonderful, interesting customers that, you know, committed to us and took space from us. But we didn't force it. You can't force that kind of thing. It’s either genuine and it's authentic, or it's not. And I think we were able to—it comes back to that emotional intelligence piece, really. 

Chantal Clavier: It does and I, you know, I sort of always talk about energies too, and I think there is that element of energetically pulling in what you give out. But in my view, and I'd be interested in yours, to do that, you have to stay quite grounded yourself and quite centred yourself. Because actually I personally tend to find or have observed that if that's off kilter, so then other things, it's like a domino effect, so then other things start to sort of fall and shift. How do you stay? Well, first of all, Charlie, you may not agree with that statement, so I'm interested to know about that. And then, I suppose afterwards I'm interested to say and to hear how would you stay grounded? How do you say sort of together and keep your own energy as you want it? 

Charlie Green: I think ego is a dangerous thing and for me, being grounded is about trying not to get consumed by your ego. I think I've always surrounded myself with people who ground me, whether it's my parents or my wife, or Olly; we grounded each other as we grew the business. I think that was reflected in the business that we built. 

So, if you think about our business, TOG, we were competing with WeWork. And it was not about us, right? We were creating buildings that were about the people, who were taking those buildings. So, the way that we would design each building individually, the way that we would brand each building individually—we were thinking about the experience of the people who were going to take that space, because we wanted them to feel like it was theirs. And that just made good commercial sense to us, that we would create longevity of income and that was good business. 

WeWork, on the other hand, was all about WeWork, and that was sort of driving their brand, with neon signs everywhere. And that was quite an extraordinary brand journey that they went on. But that just wasn't us. For us, it was less about us, and I think that played out through our business, but I think that was our sort of personalities as well. We were very, you know, I think it's important not to—it's a little bit like people who are driven purely by financial gain. If they're just chasing that pound sign, it tends to come back and bite you. I think if you get your fundamentals of—if we talk about sort of mission, purpose, values, I've never really been a great believer in that, in terms of how you articulate it. I think it’s an incredibly hard thing to capture and communicate to your team. I think that we were able to do that in how we behaved, in how we treated people, in how we spoke to people, the tone of our everything, of every communication point, we spoke about our values and what we believed in. And so that, to me, was more powerful than giving out a sort of an email to all staff saying, you know, we believe in integrity. Well, let's actually behave like that, rather than try and get somebody to read something to buy into it. 

Chantal Clavier: So, actions. 

Charlie Green: Yes, actions and behaviors. 

Chantal Clavier: And how do you maintain that sense of perspective day-to-day? What's your go-to? 

Charlie Green: Gosh. I mean, I think that there are a number of things. I try and meditate every day, I'll try and exercise, do something, even if it's just sort of five or 10 minutes most days. I think that when I had my heart surgery, I think that shifted a lot for me. I think that sort of opened my mind up to a more curious place, as to my health being physical and mental. I have regular therapy as well. I think that's important. That is—it's a tool and I think it's just good to be able to offload. Sometimes, I go through phases, but I'll get into journaling. And these are things that are a little bit obvious and a little bit cliché, but for a reason, because they are effective. That ability to get something out of you and down on paper actually is really therapeutic. 

Chantal Clavier: Moving off the subject a little: When you think about your leadership journey so far, what are the fails? What are the defining moments or the lessons that have shaped you? Everyone talks about the good stuff; what's the stuff that actually really shaped you? 

Charlie Green: So, Claire, our second employee, she left, handed in her notice. And I was really pissed off. I couldn't understand why she would not come and talk to me before handing in her notice, why she didn't give me the opportunity to say, “This business is going to be wonderful and you're going to have an amazing career, stay with us.” I was really pissed off, and I didn't talk her to for two weeks, which I'm quite embarrassed about. This is a long time ago, it's 23 years ago, 22 years ago. 

And then you realize, as you build a business and more people come, that people leaving for the right reasons is fine. It's okay. You have to learn not to take things personally. That's a really, really important rule. Sam, who used to work for me as my development director at TOG—just an extraordinarily bright and hardworking individual, and just great to work with—was, many years later, was about to burn out, and you could see it. He wasn't sleeping, he was working on holiday, working seven-hour days. Something had to give. And during Covid, he came around for lunch to my home, and I said, "Look, you can't continue, and so I'm going to give you three choices: You either take two months off and just have a break, and then come back and come back into it; we give you a change in role to take some of the pressure off; or maybe it's time.” And he'd worked for me for 14 years. I said, “Maybe it's time for you to move on. I don't want you to move on. I value you enormously and I will find it very hard to replace you, but if you need to move on, I get it. Go have a chat with Helen,” his wife, “and come back and tell me what you think.” And he came back a couple of days later, he said, “I need to change. I'm going to leave,” and it was fine. And, you know, we had a hug and it was all good, and we've worked together since. And so, yes, stark lesson, really, in not taking it personally. 

And then there were the classics of, like we had somebody who joined us who was just no good at all. This was really early on, and Olly said, “I'll deal with it.” He went to a meeting room and when he came out, I said, “How'd it go?” He said, “I couldn't do it. She started crying, and I just couldn't bring myself to do it.” And I said, “Olly, this is business, you have to make some tough decisions. I'll deal with it tomorrow.” And I went in. And I came out the meeting room, and he said to me, “How'd it go?” I said, “I couldn't do it.” But you learn. It's really hard to make those hard decisions quickly and, of course, we all know you’ve got to rip the plaster off, but actually doing it's quite tricky. But it's better for everybody when you can. 

Chantal Clavier: Yes, quite. And I think we hear those lessons quite firmly and I think we can see those in our own lives, perhaps. But it's helpful for people to hear that you felt like that, and that there are times that are difficult when a human being arrives in those business settings and perhaps things don't always go as planned. The management textbook doesn't always ring true. 

People will have described your leadership style over the years, they'd have said, "Oh, Charlie, you know, you lead in this way,” or “Charlie, you come across in a certain fashion.” How do you think they'll describe your leadership style? How have others described it to you? 

Charlie Green: I don't think I've ever asked. But I would say I would hope that I'm accessible. I think that's really important, and present. You know, over the years there were times, for sure, where I've been guilty of just not being in the room for whatever reason, and that may be [for] personal reasons, what have you. I think being present is really, really critical. And, by the way, learning every day, right, so it doesn't stop. And I don't subscribe to a method or I don't aspire to be anyone else. I can only be myself, so there's an authenticity piece there, I guess. And communication. Something to improve on, but how I communicate, and that's part of being present as well. Hard when you have a business which is fragmented. So, we’re kind of like a retailer, that we have our head office staff that you see every day, and then you've got everybody in the buildings. So, maintaining a dialogue and a communication with them is really, really critical. You got to work harder at it and it's easy to be distracted by everyday work, to lose sight of that. So, I need reminders from others and from myself to make sure that the communication is there. 

Chantal Clavier: Preserving that leadership style in a very different business such as Workspace—listed—how do you do that, or what is it from your leadership style that you particularly protect in quite a public setting? 

Charlie Green: I don't see this as being any different, being in a public setting versus being in a private setting. I have to run a business and I have to bring people on this journey, and how I do that, how I communicate with them, I don't think there are sensitivities internally. There are sensitivities externally, obviously how what I say—I have a communications team and they keep on telling me, “You can't say that.” And I'm like, “Okay, fine, I'm learning.” But genuinely, in terms of the leadership piece, I don't see any difference. 

I actually, oddly—and I'm somewhat surprised but also very happy with the fact that I don't feel any differently with Workspace than I did with ToG. So even though I founded that business, the commitment I have and the care I have for Workspace and what we can do and how we get there feels exactly the same, which is great. I think that's really important for me personally. I think that there are differences, though, because with TOG, I built the culture, and so you just layer and layer, and you learn, you grow and grow, and you hire good people, and you lose people on the way that aren't quite right, and that's fine. 

But I've come into a culture that exists, and yet I now need to put [in] my leadership style, my personality, my vision for the business. I need people to buy into that, and need people to get excited about that. And that's challenging, for sure. That's harder in many ways, because I'm asking people to empty their cup and refill it with something else. And hopefully most people will do that, but it will take a little bit of time and a lot of effort from everybody, including me, to get them to have that culture shift. 

But then I think the culture of the people is where we start. Then we've got to work on the product, the modernization of the portfolio and how we're elevating everything, and re-pricing, and rebranding; all of those things come. And some of those will help inform the culture shift as well, because people get excited about seeing change, and some won't. And it's a fascinating journey. So, yes, I think that the people piece, surrounding yourself with the best people you can, is really critical to having a high-performance culture. 

And we need a high-performance culture, that's the reality with this business. Workspace is a business that was highly, highly successful, the market leader for many, many years. It's 40 years old. It's now stuck in where it was maybe 10 years ago and so we need to actually bring it forward to not just keep pace with everybody else in this market. We need to outperform because we need to own our category. We have the size and the scale to be able to do that; we have the platform, we just need to make it highly efficient and highly attuned to what our customers want. And it's an extraordinary opportunity, so I'm very grateful for that, but of course it can only work if we have the right people who are understanding what that is and [are] able to execute on it. 

I think we have many of the right people. And there are skills gaps, and we'll be adding, [and] what have you. So [it’s] a challenge, for sure, but, really, an exciting one. I think it's sort of coming from a place where I feel this very deep sense of ownership already, that I knew the business before I started there, [that] I've known it for many years. 

Chantal Clavier: Absolutely, I think words such as feel, care—I mean as you were talking, I was thinking, “Well, of course, people come first, Charlie.” I mean, it's the business we're in. But there isn't a business, and for you there isn't a customer base, without any people, right? 

As you think about your winning executive team, Charlie, what are the qualities and the mindsets that are so important for you and for them to ensure that you can make this difference? Because frankly, you have such great vision and knowledge about the space in which you are existing today, so if anybody has the vision and the drive to take this business forward, it is you. But it is not you alone, it's a village, isn't it, that changes action and output? So, what qualities, what mindsets does that winning executive team as a cohort need? 

Charlie Green: I think they have to have a level of openness, they have to be open to receiving. They have to be prepared to challenge, because what I say may not be right, and so I need to be pushed back on, but in that sort of healthy, positive debate. So, the positivity is really, really key, because when you descend into negativity, if somebody's pissed off because I've said something and they think that my way is the highway, do it or get out, that's not the environment I want. 

I'm also very forceful with my views. So, if I believe something, I'm going to tell it to you, but I hope that they see that I am open to that discussion and debate…as long as at the end of it they realize I'm right. Now, that is a joke. That is a joke. But genuinely, I want that pushback, I want that intellectual debate. I think that's really, really healthy. But I also need people to be really open to change, to doing something new. It's the openness, because the openness allows them to then to get excited, and then when you're excited about something, you work harder. 

And it comes back to that old Chinese proverb of emptying your cup. If you can say, “I am prepared to see how something can be done differently,” then I think that openness allows you to embrace change. Change is very, very difficult for people to run with. It's hard, but it's absolutely a fundamental of business, of life. If you don't change, you're standing still, and if you're standing still, you're actually going backwards. So as a business, we have to always be moving, always responding. And the changes that I want to make to Workspace are quite significant. And so, I need people to be okay to receive that, and that, I think, will allow [for] a winning team. And so attitude, aptitude, you know, these are the—Caroline, who was our project manager, she was so enthusiastic about trying something new. She had the skills, and then she had the openness and the attitude, and that was the winning formula. 

Chantal Clavier: And the care. 

Charlie Green: And the care, because care makes you see the detail, and the detail is what makes a difference. 

Chantal Clavier: Your customer base, it's [a] very distinct customer base, supporting SMEs and entrepreneurial businesses. How does that influence the way you think about growth? 

Charlie Green: Well, the SME market is the largest market that we could possibly tap into. It's close to 80% of all demand for office space in Central London. So, if we get it right, then the demand is there. And work behavior has changed, and has changed rapidly. And yes, the pandemic really made that change happen much quicker. Technology has enabled that as well. So, our behaviors at work have shifted. So, that's about when we go into the office, that's about what we do in the office, the variety of how we work and want to work in any given day. Each individual works differently from day-to-day. We have to constantly be thinking about what's important for them, not what is important for us. How do we create an experience for them, and how do we make them feel? So, I have in the past talked about how I want somebody to—and this is not even on a conscious level. So, if somebody feels something, they don't need to acknowledge that feeling, they just need to feel it, and then they want to be there. 

And I've used this example before, but it may be the weight of a door handle; that if it is a cheap, crappy door handle, people feel that in their hand. If it's a door handle of substance and weight, it tells them something about the environment they're in. Offices was always the forgotten sector in terms of design, right? So, we saw design come through in restaurants, in hotels, boutique hotels, private members’ clubs, and one's home. Yet [the place] where you spent the majority of your waking hours—nobody invested time in to considering design in that environment, which was just insane. So that was sort of, that design piece was highly important for us when we started TOG, and is critical for us moving forward. 

Design is about what it looks like, design is about how it works; form and function. So, we have to get those right. And we'll only get them right if we are catering to what we believe the customer wants and needs, not what we like. If I like a chair, it's not a reason to put the chair in there. How are other people going to feel about that chair? So, that design pieces is really critical. 

Our role is as owners of and providers of space is about creating the best possible environments that are compelling, that attract people to come into the office, because there's so much tension now about when people come in and when they don't come in. Frankly, the real estate industry has sort of immersed itself in this debate over remote working, hybrid working, return to office, work from home. It's not a conversation that should be had. Who are we to say to a company, “Your people should come in three days a week, four days a week, five days a week”? Our role is to say, “We're going to provide the best possible space. That means that you and your employees are going to want to be there.” 

And that is about how you make people feel, and the experience that you give people when they're there. Can you give them that choice, that variety? Can you give them the right kind of amenities? That might be some kind of wellness [or] fitness space, it might be a phone booth—and that there are enough phone booths that people can go and take that for audio and visual privacy, that Teams call—that we never really had to think about five, six, seven years ago. And how we adjust and adapt to those needs, I think, is going to be critical, because that will then determine whether or not people go into our buildings, and people will make their decisions based on how they feel, whether they know it or don't know. 

Chantal Clavier: I'm going to switch entirely, because as you're talking and there are so many words you're using that are deeply resonating with me as I think about the feel and the care and the passion, quality, the intuitive nature of buildings and how businesses should respond. I'm also thinking about our different listeners, different age groups of our listeners, too. And I’m wondering if I was just a few years younger than I am, Charlie, what I might think about in terms of real estate, how I might perceive real estate as a sector; operating customer-focused perhaps, landlord [focused] perhaps. But if I was a young person, perhaps I'm at university, perhaps I'm at school, I'm looking to get ahead, what advice would you share? What gem of insightful advice have you got to give them about thinking about real estate and coming into what I really truly believe is a brilliant sector that is having a very difficult time at the moment?

Charlie Green: It's really hard to make money from real estate today. Those who would buy a building or a site, get planning. The buy it, fix it, sell it model—which I guess Blackstone really captured with that phrase—was really a very standard approach for many, many people. You buy something at one price, you spend some money on it, and you sell it. You let it and you sell it for more. A lot of people made a lot of money with that approach. 

I think it's really hard to do that now, and I think you have to work harder. The advice to someone coming into the industry is be prepared to work hard and really be much more lateral in your thinking. I think we are, as an industry, too blinkered, and I think that if we are about people's experience, and that is what is going to draw people to our asset, to our bricks and mortar, you need to be thinking differently. You need to be attuned to what culturally is happening, societally is happening, so that you are designing something—If we think about content when it comes to social media, the content of our spaces is the physical manifestation. And that is more powerful as we become more digitally consumed, because AI now is all-pervasive. And perhaps we're seeing that on an individual level, on a personal level, but you're going to start to see it now penetrate commercially with businesses. 

We are going to be more consumed, and perhaps a human response to that is a more human need, that we require more from our human interaction. And therefore, as a real estate industry, how are we providing spaces that are thinking harder about bringing people together? So, that is not singular in the sense that we shouldn't just be thinking, “I'm going to build an office and I'm just going to put some desks in there and have a nice reception with marble on the walls,” that we are thinking much harder. 

Now, there's a balance because it's not just about amenities. So, I think we've over-amenitised, right? So with balance, what I'm saying is, let's not just put in a great gym and a great café and some meeting rooms and beautiful design and a roof garden. We have to think harder about that. What is the experience of someone coming to the space? How are we curating it? What kind of partnerships are we entering into with brands that are relevant—more relevant than we can be as a real estate brand, but that allows us to elevate our brand because we're in collaboration with partners? And understanding the shifts culturally, understanding that people aren't spending the same amount of money on luxury goods. They're spending far less money on luxury experiences. And that's a reflection of our macroeconomic environment right now, geopolitical uncertainty, all of those things mean that people are saying, “Okay, I need to be more careful about where I spend my money, but I still want to live the fullest possible life.” 

As an individual working in real estate, you need to be thinking much more laterally and understanding the cultural piece, the societal piece. And if you can understand those elements and understand bricks and mortar, and you bring those two together, that's a very potent combination. And I think that is what will set you apart. And maybe the final piece of advice is that I've always believed in— Olly [and I], our alignment on this was sort of extraordinary because we never said it, we just did it— was be different, don't follow the crowd. Being different allows you to stand out, and standing out is hugely important. Your brand is your tool to do that, but your brand is every touch point, your brand is not [just] your name, is not [just] your logo, is not [just] your visual identity. Your brand is how your people speak to other people. What is your design? What is the content? What are your collaborations? All of that is your brand. Every touch point is your brand. 

Chantal Clavier: You know, magic closing words, Charlie, not just for young professionals or individuals already in the workplace, but individuals stepping in to CEO roles, perhaps even individuals in CEO roles, going through transformation. I think there is a lot of change happening, not just within our real estate industry but in the world as a whole. And touch on the behavioral piece and the human factor has to be center of everybody's mind as we move forward. 

Charlie Green: And I think, just to go back to the technology point, the importance of that could not be more critical right now as we move into a different age, being human as a leader and as a CEO. When I started Workspace, I knew I was starting on the Monday morning, and I was doing a town hall, and [I was] bringing everybody in to say hi to everybody in head office at 9:30, so they were meeting me for the first time, many of them. And on the Sunday before I had a fever, and my wife was like, "Well yes, yes, you're nervous.” “No, I'm not nervous, I'm just not well. I must have picked up something.” But I was nervous, and that's okay. You know, these people are looking to me for direction and guidance and leadership, and that's a lot, and that's okay. It's all right for it to be a lot, and it's okay to show some vulnerability, that's fine. 

And look, it's three and a half months into the role, I feel like I've been a very long time. I feel like the care I have is, as I said, the same as it with my own business. There are challenges. We have an activist investor, we have a business to turn around, and we have a lot of shareholder support as well for that, and I'm hugely encouraged and hugely excited. And [I] know that there are going to be highs and there are going to be lows, and that's the journey. 

Chantal Clavier: I think being able to feel those things, being able to express those emotions, and [being able to] show them are three different things, and not everybody is practiced at that. But my observation and my takeaway—there's a number of takeaways I have from our session, Charlie—but one of my observations from this session is that you're able, and have been for quite a long time, to do all three. And perhaps as we think and look at leaders in the world for businesses, associations, charities, whatever it might be, I think they are three very different aspects that one could consider. 

Thank you so much for making the time to speak today. I really appreciate it. 

Charlie Green: Pleasure. 

Chantal Clavier: It's been wonderful. 

Charlie Green: Yes, thanks very much for having me. 

Thanks for listening to The Heidrick and Struggles Leadership Podcast. To make sure you don't miss the next conversation, please subscribe to our channel on your preferred podcast app, and if you're listening via LinkedIn or YouTube, why not share this with your connections? Until next time.

About the interviewer

Chantal Clavier (cclavier@heidrick.com) is a partner and leads the firm’s real estate sector within the global Financial Services Practice; she is based in the London office.